Monday, March 7, 2011

The Quality of FOSS Blogs

You may or may not be aware that I am the current project leader for Bodhi Linux. As such, in addition to developing the distribution I've also done my best to contact various websites that do write ups about Linux related things to do write ups about Bodhi. After all, what is the use of developing something if no one is going to use it? Up until now most everything that folks had written about Bodhi had been, fair, decently objective, and at least a small bit researched.

This evening I read an article that struck a bit of a nerve with me. I had contacted the author of Dedoimedo a couple months back to see if he would be willing to take a look at Bodhi. He said he was interested and then sent me an email back letting me know:

"Just an early FYI, I started testing the distro. It's got lots of issues,
I'm gonna release that in the review, but I wanted you to know up ahead, it's only fair"

Great, I love constructive user feedback. Find an issue? Let us know and we will get it fixed - we are still in a "release candidate" stage with the Bodhi project so we know issues are bound to occur.

I had been wondering exactly what "lots of issues" he had encountered, we have a decent user base now and no one else had reported anything more than a few minor things. Earlier this week he finally posted his thoughts about Bodhi - I was a bit turned off that he had completely missed the point of the project. We are not trying to be Pinguy OS or Zorin. We do not think it is necessary to install "everything and the kitchen sink" for all users. In fact quite the opposite, we pride ourselves on the exact opposite - user choice by allowing them to easily customize their own system.

He spent most all of what he wrote complaining about the lack of pre-installed applications found in the minimalistic distribution. This is like purchasing a fork and then complaining that it is difficult to eat soup with said utensil - just utter non-sense.

He then goes on to complain about a few configurable features of Enlightenment, including how it handles window focus and the behavior of maximized applications and your shelves. Towards the end he also says:

"Getting the extra stuff requires a liberal use of the package manager, turning minimalistic into a saga of hard work"

Which further proves how little he actually looked into the project itself because installing software from our online software center is about as easy as it gets.

At the end of the day he did come across one actual bug with the distro - the fact that the default home page in Firefox was a "restore last session" message, a small oversight before building the disc image. This has been corrected in our latest release and we extend our apologies to all those out there than had to click the restore button before going on with their webrowsing on Bodhi 0.1.5

Odds are you have heard the statement "Linux is not Windows" before. This isn't a bad thing, in fact different is good - it is however a fair warning that if you try to use Linux thinking it is going to look and feel the same as Windows you are going to be sorely disappointed. In the same respect - Bodhi is not Ultimate Edition or Pinguy OS and we are not trying to be. We advertise what we are, so the user (should) know what they are getting before they download our latest release.

I guess all in all I am just a little disappointed that some where as popular as dedoimedo gave such a biased post with obviously little research into what the project was about. I guess in the end it is a healthy reminder that you need to take everything you read on the internet with a (sometimes huge) grain of salt. Why am I posting this rebuttal here? Because Dedoimedo is kind enough to have any form of commenting disabled on his website (I could guess a few reasons why). At the end of the day I guess "any advertising is good advertising" - Right?

What do you think? Was dedoimedo objective in his post and I am just overacting because I am personally involved in Bodhi or am I right in my annoyance with his post?

~Jeff Hoogland

45 comments:

  1. I'm new to Linux, but I've appreciated following your blog and appreciate what you're doing here in talking about Bodhi as well as discussing Linux as a whole, including your own take on other distros.

    OK, so that's me.

    "At the end of the day I guess 'any advertising is good advertising' - Right?"

    I hope so, but not necessarily. I don't think that one review, though, is going to influence people one way or another. Other reviewers have been more forgiving and open-minded, so I wouldn't worry about it, though.

    "Was dedoimedo objective in his post?"

    No one is objective. It's a non-sequitur most of the time. Asking whether he was fair is perhaps a better question, perhaps, but that's not an easy question either. I think some of the points he raised were reasonable and fair (although, like way too many distro reviews, focused too heavily on customizable visual themes and default software packages, which are obviously customizable and not inherent to what will make/break Bodhi -- welcome to Linux!!!). I think his tone was not fair. I am not sure what about his experience with Bodhi made him so irritated, he never made that clear. I think, though, it's likely to represent external baggage that has nothing to do with Bodhi. I don't know how to read it another way and I think that makes it unfair.

    "(Am I) just overacting because I am personally involved in Bodhi or am I right in my annoyance with his post?"

    Yes and yes. :) Your project will move on and will probably be better for it if you allow it to be. You're right to be annoyed, but don't allow it to distract you from your project goals.

    The reality of creating something is that it leaves you open to criticism. The reality of Linux is that we all want a personalized environment and experience. Those worlds shouldn't meet because the critic shouldn't be applying his own personal preferences to the review of something that represents another person's vision. But at the end of the day, there's nothing you can do about it. Take away what you can in order to sharpen your tools, but brush off the rest and move on.

    Onward and upward!

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  2. You should really take lessons from Linux Mint and PCLinuxOS. If this is not just a semi-serious project contact Clem and Texstar, or Anticapitalista from AntiX and ask how they gather extra revenue, average time they spent each day on this, what are the costs, legal considerations regarding codecs etc.

    Then you define your targeted audience because if you push your own preferences as a base for your fork I think Noobs are *ucked, and lets face it, advanced users already have they preferred choice and dont need yet another way to install packages.

    That said,You found a nice niche in joining Ubuntu and E, but you should do it the Mint way, if your goal is to spread Linux and E at the same time.
    I would personally like to see this:
    Make Ubuntu LTS your primary base and concern even when non-LTS releases come out.( It would be prudent to track LTS only, until you get a sense of time/resources/manpower needed to track one release. Studies show that overconfidence should be primary concern when starting any enterprise/project.)

    Remove only those Ubuntu bits that clash with Enlightenment, or require to much tinkering/mainteining to make them work (Ubuntu One comes to mind), leave rest as is.

    Add those little things that make post-install faster: flash,java,codecs,fonts(watch out for legal considerations).
    You could write a simple GUI that greets on first boot and walks a user through above steps in a simple and fast way. Have another GUI for most popular PPA-s with PPA-s alredy in sources list but not activated, so new user learns what PPA-s are and how to use them and old users have the convenience.

    Basically, this is a good mantra for successful forks, least tinkering with base as possible, while giving all the extra convenience as possible. Remember, even Ubuntu with all its manpower take Debian Stable as base for LTS releases not Testing, which is base for intermediate releases.

    Your repositories should really be signed in todays world of online banking or your fork really shouldnt be used at all. There are couple of big distros that also use unsigned packages but that is really a poor excuse. Security shouldnt be compromised for convenience or we are in Windows land again.

    Security wise activated firewall,firewall GUI,activated apparmor profiles on default installation would put your fork one big step ahead regarding default security with none price for convenience. But this is just my personal preference talking.

    Wherever you decide to go with your project I wish you luck.

    Regarding Dedoimedo, he is a cool guy and his site is full with really good tutorials so dont mistake his honesty for malice or incompetence.
    That said, he was wrong in emphasising lack of apps because your site clearly state what you get.

    Rest of the article raised a valid question of targeted audience,because your fork is so stripped down it isnt usable without further installing/tinkering and that excludes all Noobs automatically. So if your fork stays as it is you cant flag it as easy to use Linux or even Ubuntu with E, you should flag it as Linux for intermediate/advanced users who are at least familiar with Ubuntu.

    You are underestimating average Windows/PC users capabilities and overestimating their wiligness to spend time downloading apps/capabilities they expect to be present already.
    So this article should really be indicative that your fork (if it stays as is) will only be welcomed by people familiar with Linux, not by Noobs. Thats OK, but dont feel to upset when you read review that looks at your fork from a NoobOhWhyDoesntThisWork angle.

    I really wish you reconsider and go for the Mint way, that said I wish you lack for the second time:)

    All the best, Singu.

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  3. Review ? sure?
    Decoimedo simply unprofessional, is the worst , review ? I've read in my life.

    It has no credibility for me.

    Greetings and thanks for Bodhi!!!
    User Enlightenment since 2004

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  4. Jeff, Dedoimedo here.

    Don't be angry because of my review. It's nothing personal. My dissatisfaction with Bodhi does not invalidate your effort or ideas. And it's just one man's opinion, after all.

    You also did not comment on the fact that you're one of the few people who had the courage to say yes to something you knew was going to be bad. Keep that energy and your distro could become big one day.

    I'll add a link to this post in the article today or tomorrow.

    Cheers,
    Dedoimedo

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  5. utherpendragonflyMarch 8, 2011 at 9:21 AM

    Wow! After reading that review I just have to comment. The author has some valid points, but I thought the majority of his review was quite hostile.
    He starts off by stating that he dislikes Enlightenment, which he hasn’t used in years. Then he complains a lot about tiny fonts and the cheap metallic look of a particular theme (which I think has changed since the older version of Bodhi he was using has been updated). On my run-of-the-mill 20 inch HP monitor the default font size looked just fine. But, as with any Linux/Enlightenment, font size and theme are easily changeable. I agree that some older Enlightenment themes look a bit archaic, but there are many beautiful, modern-looking themes included in Bodhi and more from the Bodhi website.
    But I won’t go on about little details. Basically he doesn’t seem to understand that Bodhi is supposed to be a bare-bones Ubuntu using Enlightenment, the purpose being to install what the user wants.
    It is definitely not for newbies.
    I, too, was slightly taken aback when first using Bodhi. No flash, no codecs, no firewall app pre-installed. I was used to using Mint or Pinguy OS that comes with all that. But, you get what’s advertised. In five minutes those things (plus a screenshot tool) were installed from synaptic or the Bodhi website.
    About some other points in the review: Yes, the window focus thing takes a little getting used to with Enlightenment. But it’s not Gnome or KDE. And actually, I now kind of like being able to see a window above the one I’m working in. Once you learn how it works (click title bar to bring it forward) it’s no big deal. Or I believe you can change that aspect of the window behavior if you want. And I never had any problem with sound not working, unlike the reviewer. But, it’s Linux. And it’s still in Beta. Sometimes that happens.
    Another thing the reviewer mentioned was Bodhi not showing the root partition as mounted and labeled in Nautilus, and /home partition not showing up at all. I certainly never had that problem. Maybe his installation of Bodhi got messed up somehow?
    A few points he mentioned that I think might help Bodhi: maybe having a text editor, firewall program, a few other basic things included by default. Codecs and fonts would be nice (more appealing to new Linux users) if legally feasible. But I guess it depends on your goal, as previous commenters mentioned. Do you want to spread Enlightenment to as many people as possible with Bodhi? Target Bodhi only to experienced Linux users?
    Anyway, at least Dedoimedo did commend you for your honesty and integrity for approving his horrendous review. And I must agree. As he said, “With such a positive and open attitude and no fear of criticism, Bodhi could become a great piece of work”.

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  6. His review is utter crap... but have you considered making a more "loaded" version of bodhi, with the basics?

    One of each catagory

    you don't need several media players, you don't need 13 text editors... but something a tad more usable out of the box?

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  7. Well, here I am, posting this from Bodhi, which is running an old laptop (P4, 512MB RAM, 120GB HDD -- if you think this is impressive... the RAM is low speed as is the P4, and the RPM on the HDD is low as well). I chose Bodhi because it was minimalistic. In all honesty, my complaints are simple:

    Instead of Firefox, would you consider Midori, Dillo, Netsurf or another "lighter" browser?

    Instead of LXTerm would you consider something like XTerm or ETerm?

    Instead of Nautilus, would you consider something like thunar, or possible even ROX?

    This hack who was ripping into Bodhi has no idea what he is talking about. If he thinks that Bodhi is minimal to a point of being a pain, he has clearly never tried Gentoo or Arch. The reality of the situation is that Linux users' tastes are MORE varied than our distributions. I changed the file manager, terminal, and web browser that shipped on Bodhi after installation. Besides a few other things that provide a usable system... that was the whole package set...

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  8. I think the Dedoimedo review was lazy, ignorant, grossly unfair and borderline malicious.
    Not mentioned in the comments above is that the reviewer stated early on his dislike of Enlightenment and this seems to have coloured his perceptions from the start. To be completely ignorant of the aims of the project (a minimalist e17 distro) and to ignore, the quite wonderful, package management/recommendations/combinations etc is simply unforgivable. I could go on, but the comments above cover most of the bases.
    One of the only statements that was worth considering was the comparison with Puppy (tried it, liked it, prefer Bodhi.....comments Jeff?)
    Singu: Couldn't disagree more. Why try to be like Mint etc? Bodhi is Bodhi: fresh, unusual with something about it.
    Jeff: I applaud you and your team for creating something quite special, please don't be discouraged by the drivel that was the Dedoimedo review.

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  9. I have to agree with everything Singu pointed out. Dedoimedo was spot-on with his review. Was it what you wanted to hear? Of course not. I used Bodhi at the beginning, but like him I feel that Enlightenment, while flashy, isn`t the most user-friendly desktop. He did make a great point: why IS 400+MB used for a "minimalistic" distro that is way too bare-bones when Puppy, etc. get by with 100? Hell, even Kolibri has more apps at 3MB!

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  10. By "more apps", I mean a complete OS.

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  11. Hi Jeff, the review is utter nonsense and childish and I can see that he was carrying out his predetermined agenda of thrashing bodhi linux..

    I too have the request for a full version of bodhi linux...i'm downloading and testing your distro from its first release itself... i really like Enlightenment... i know that you really care about the constructive criticism (for example the default bodhi theme and artwork for the first alpha release, they were awful compared to the Enlightenment standard) and now each release of bodhi is getting better and better... i know you are really targeting advanced users by this minimalistic edition... but i don't know why you are reluctant to create a 600 - 700 MB distro like ubuntu which will clearly define which media player,cd/dvd burner, text editor etc is best for (light weight and tightly integrated with E17)the Enlightenment based distro.. you are busy with creating a fedora and arch based bodhi so why can't you create a ready to go 700 MB distro which will have the software for the common usage... all the above commentors are also asking for a 700 MB ready to go bodhi linux.... as the popularity of bodhi linux increases i'm sure that more and more people will ask for a ready to go bodhi linux.... and if that doesn't happen from your side, sometimes somebody will fork bodhi linux and create a ready to go version of bodhi ;) that may be a bit of irony... so please consider our sincere request to create a ready to go version of bodhi...

    I'm really sad that you are restricting the beautiful Enlightenment available only to advanced linux users who are ready to go to any extend and try it.. if you really wish to make the Enlightenment available also to the noobs and average linux users, please consider our sincere plea to create a ready to go bodhi linux...

    i know we can install whatever we want from bodhi linux software page by downloading and double clicking it.. but the noobs will just get frustrated by seeing there isn't enough of software by default and they have to download each and every software... Enlightenment is really good looking and it can attract new users to linux just like compiz done before; only if you are considering the noobs and willing to create a 700 MB ready to go version of bodhi...

    Let's make bodhi available to more users...

    --- Jai Ho...

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  12. Also I would like to add one more request... please include Wubi installer with bodhi... its really great to give users more option to try bodhi.. thanks and awating your response...

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  13. For that matter, Peppermint Ice is 407MB, again a full-featured and super-fast OS. I agree that Bodhi needs to be bigger like Jai Ho just said. The "minimalist distro" market is saturated already. Just give us a decent Enlightenment-based OS, at least for those of us still interested in it. (I`m personally all for Gnome 3/GnomeShell now). Although Jolicloud is kicking major butt.

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  14. Hey, Jeff --
    Yes, you got an unfair bad review. But in the reviewer's defense he was looking for something else and Bhodi was not it. Now I'm a dedicated distro-hopper and I give you lots of points. I like being able to choose my applications rather than being force-fed someone else's selection. (Yes I had fun with Linux from Scratch.) I do owe you a bug report as I had installation problems with 0.1.6, but have been a bit lazy to get that to you. Nontheless, please keep the minimalist focus. There are whole swathes of applications that others find absolutely necessary, that are total disk wasters.
    Carry on and you've got at least one minimalist supporter.

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  15. @Those commenting in the size of the disc - 400megs is about as trim as I can get an Ubuntu based disc and still have an X server and any applications on it. If you know how to get it smaller, please I am interested in knowing how.

    Also - I just checked the peppermint CD and it is 450 megs, sure I could bloat Bodhi with a pile of mostly useless cloud/lightweight applications that many people would remove for an extra 50megs - but I am not about to do that!

    @Ford - This is the first time I am mentioning it publicly, but starting with out 0.1.7 release this weekend Midori will become the default webrowser on Bodhi, switching to it from firefox saved us some disc space, bring the ISO back down to under 400megs. As far as file managers go - Thunar (and others) that are light weight lack enough features to fully replace nautilus. Maybe once PCManFM gets stable (the latest 0.9.8 keeps segfaulting all over the place) it might be able to replace nautilus.

    @The comments about being like Linux Mint and others - you want all that extra stuff then USE LINUX MINT. That is not what we are about. FOSS is all about choice, you have the choice not to use Bodhi if you want extras all over the place by default...

    Also, maybe I am just letting things slip a little but I am adding a GUI text editor by default starting with the 0.1.7 release as well - leafpad. Simple, but it gets the job done and only takes up 1mb of space :)

    Cheers,
    ~Jeff

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  16. Might want to check Distrowatch, the new respin of Peppermint Ice is 407 megs, like I said.

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  17. The point is, you don`t HAVE any apps on it. So what is taking up all the space?

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  18. Right from here - http://peppermintos.com/download/ peppermint is 450~megs.

    As I said above - simply having X and everything that is needed for that on something Ubuntu based is over 300megs. After that synaptic, LXDM, Enlightenment, Firefox... All those take up space. Remember peppermint is mostly "cloud" applications, so in reality very little is actually installed - mostly just web links.

    Puppy and Ubuntu are fairly different cores. If Bodhi was a puplet it would be much smaller.

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  19. There is some people who insist that all distros should have a complete set of software. Well, even the most used OS in the world, doesn't have that. When I arrived to Linux I had to distro hope a lot, because every thing had too much I did not want, and too few of what I wanted. In Linux, its much more easy to start from ground and build what suits you, than the other way around. Arguing that all the hundred Linux Distros, should offer the same thing, is a complete no sense.

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  20. Hello,
    I've written a post on my blog about this. I definitely support you, though there are a few areas where I agree with Dedoimedo. Also, isn't there a version of Puppy based on Ubuntu that's still as small as was mentioned? Plus, Dedoimedo didn't particularly like Peppermint either.
    Please do tell me what you think. Keep up the good work with Bodhi Linux!
    --
    a Linux Mint user since 2009 May 1

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  21. The guy wrote:-
    "I must admit I did not intend to review this distribution. It's a very early release and, let's be frank, yet another Ubuntu fork. Seriously, do we need yet another Ubuntu pimpage, done to this or that degree of quality and style?"

    I'm a noob and even I can easily retort "Uhh yeah we do?Name me any real "FAST" and yet beautiful Ubuntu forks out there that's done right ASIDE from Linux Mint?".I bet he can't come up with any answers.

    Forks are there simply because the audience are there to switch from Ubuntu's orig flaws.It's that simple.

    I mean there's 1 good reason how Mint is Mint today.The general consensus is there.It's just built better and WAY FASTER than its Ubuntu base.Period.KDE or GNOME.Regardless.

    We have tons of "BLOATED" and beautiful Ubuntu forks.Not to rag on others but yeah that's about it.

    Name me 1 that can beat Bodhi's OOTB abilities to compare at e17 distros?None I can think of.I've tried Sabayon and PCLOS.The 2 to me are the real WIPs.

    Dedoimedo should try Sabayon 5.5 E17... THEN come back here and show me if nm-applet can work in default OOTB :) No while we're at it try every other diff based E17 distros.

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  22. Well, I've used Bodhi and I can see it's principles. Its more or less a blank canvas, based on Ubuntu. I had no issues with it and installing stuff wasn't hard. After about an hour I had a fully functional system that did what my main Ubuntu box does. Seriously, if the guy didn't want to review it say so, not just go off on one.

    I always say to critics, if they think they can do better, give it a try and see what others think. Constructive criticism is good, a critic who doesn't want to review anything will always give a bad review, no matter how good the product is.

    Good work on Bodhi Jeff :)

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  23. I agree with ArlynJ: Yes, the review was peppered with unnecessary snark, which would rightly annoy almost anyone.

    That said, the review touched on multiple valid points, and yes, if you simply dismiss it then you're letting wounded ego cloud your judgment.

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  24. "the review touched on multiple valid points"

    List them please?

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  25. At the risk of frustrating you more than you already are, I'm going to offer you a chance to really learn something here--by going back over the review with a cooler, more dispassionate head and finding them yourself.

    I have in my life written articles professionally, all of which were subject to review. Once in a great while, I'd get a clueless reviewer who obviously didn't even bother to read the article, but that was very rare. Often however, I'd disagree with what was clearly a more careful, considered review. It took me a while to realize that the reviewer was seeing *something* that I wasn't, and I assigned myself the task of working to find a point of view from which the reviewer's criticism was at least plausible, even if I still disagreed with it. It's a challenging exercise, but it is ultimately both instructive and constructive.

    That said, I will give you one example, using one of the observations that I suspect got your hackles up the most. One of the less tactfully phrased items in Dedoimedo's review comes near the end. I refer to the characterization of Bodhi as "pointless." If we get past the deeply inartful phrasing, what is this reviewer *really* saying?

    I submit to you that he's saying that Bodhi does not communicate a clear, easily recognizable, user value proposition. He's saying that the only people who could turn Bodhi into something useful for more than just Web browsing would, in essence, be able to install E17 in Ubuntu all on their own. Conversely, if someone wanted to do nothing more than Web browsing, there are already distros out there who meet that need, but come in at one-tenth the size of Bodhi.

    So, at the end of the day, there are already multiple <100 MB minimalist distros. And there are already at least a half-dozen E-centric distros. And of course, there are already about 10 bazillion Ubuntu respins. All of which begs the question: what does Bodhi do for the user that these existing distros don't? And, more importantly, how do you communicate Bodhi's unique contribution in a "first impression"?

    If Bodhi does indeed have a "special sauce" all its own, Dedoimedo is telling you (snark aside) that said sauce is difficult to find.

    (Oh, and Dedoimedo's right: include a console-based text editor to allow users to edit their config files in case of a borked install. Nano will add <400K.)

    So go back to the review and try to see past the snark. I know it's hard, but you'll cultivate a valuable skill in the process.

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  26. @Last Anonymous

    You just further proved my point. All of our goals are clearly stated on our website - which Dedoimedo obviously never looked at. He also skipped over may of the things that make Bodhi unique to other E distros in his review (such as the desktop configuration during the live session and first boot).

    Oh and to further prove he never looked very far - nano is and always has been pre-installed on Bodhi.

    Even the sun can be hard to find if you lay face down on the ground with your eyes closed.

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  27. *sigh*

    Hard lesson: Pride of authorship is a great quality. But ego-investment in your work is death.

    "There are none so blind as those who will not see."

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  28. Anonymous, It looks like you haven't done your research or spent enough time with Bodhi either. You're taking Dedoimedo's review as gospel... or are you Dedoimedo?

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  29. Hi jeff, linux mint does not use e17.. if it were I would not have requested you to create a full version of bodhi linux.. the only up to date e17 distro is bodhi linux.. that is why i'm following the bodhi linux team and requesting them to create a full version.. i don't know why you are thinking that e17 should only be used by the advanced linux users and it should not be available to ready to use format for noobs...

    Anyway I will continue follow bodhi linux team ( they have done a very good job). I would also like to hear your opinion about using Wubi installer option is bodhi linux ...

    Thanks

    Jai Ho

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  30. Personally I feel spending time developing Wubi is a waste of time at this current point as development efforts are better spent on other things.

    As far as a "full" version goes, honestly all those complaining should really look at our software center... You can download a PILE of applications in a single .bod download and install them all with just a few clicks...

    http://www.bodhilinux.com/software/doku.php?id=nikhila_application_set

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  31. Jeff, I know you want to do minimal... but consider this... there are no good e17 ubuntu distros out there besides bodhi. Bodhi takes a lot of work to get setup right.

    One interesting option would to edit the installer so you can select common applications from a list (checkbox) for apt to go out and get. Have them sectioned off by use.

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  32. I second Scott suggestion, although putting Nikhila and choise for individual apps on the desktop would be easier and equally convenient, just make sure there is some gui pop-up explaining what those links are right after first login.

    I have put Bodhi on my brothers lap 4 days ago and everything is running fine.
    I do have some questions do:

    Is there any chance for CUPS and its GUI to be included in defaults. I have noticed that it pulls in alot of packages so I understand if you are hesitant but printing is elementary and you cant go around CUPS.

    There was kernel version .34-24 or .35-24 from your repo when there is .35-25 available from Ubuntu, Is there a reason I should use your version. I am writing this from memory so excuse me if I am wrong. Version i installed was .32 because of reasons unrelated to Bodhi and as I said everything runs fine.

    Firefox was beta, will you always track beta or is this because of transission to v4.

    Since you want to have install disc as small as possible i have noticed that these packages are included but not activated or maybe overlooked:
    apparmor related stuff ( always use it)
    telnet ( you have openssh-client so dont see the point)
    Dont remember if there was anything else.

    I hope you are having fun, and I wish you luck.

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  33. CUPs and GUI for it will NEVER be included by default. I personally have several systems that will never have need for printing and I know others will as well - why clutter their systems with extra packages?

    We are using the 2.6.34 kernel still because there were not any major bug fixes between the two versions I could see.

    Firefox is currently at the beta release because of the upcoming firefox 4 release - firefox 3.6 is also in the repo (package is firefox-3.6) for those that want the "stable" version.

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  34. Thank for fast reply

    We disagree on CUPS since since I think mere percentage of people that use printing should justify its inclusion.

    If there is no reason for using your kernel over Ubuntu why duplicated effort or are you planning to serve more recent kernel versions in the future and will this be valid for other apps from your repo.

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  35. Our kernel does come down from Ubuntu 2.6.35-24 is a kernel built from the maverick repository

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  36. Hi Jeff, sorry for delay in replying you as I wanted to comment only after using the Nikhila application set.. As per your comment, I have tried the Nikhila application set in bodhi.... It is around 430 MB download and contains most of the softwares needed to make a complete os... it took around 20 minutes to completely install the Nikhila application set in my VM (512 MB ram)...

    I really agree with you that there is no need for a separate full version of bodhi as we can download and install the Nikhila application set which makes the minimalist bodhi to a full version os ... it really a sensible solution for my request .. you can completely concentrate on the development of bodhi while the people need a ready to go full os can download and install Nikhila and other who want to select the application themselves can download required one from bodhi software centre... great work..

    but i have also few questions... why did not I have found it after installing bodhi... I really think that you have to make visible the options available to make the bodhi a full version right after the installation... I know you have given a link to bodhi software center in FF.. but a first time user will wonder why there is no apps after installation...

    It would be great if you can make a walkthrough to install Nikhila apps set right after the installion like you have done selecting the theme..

    there should be an option to download Nikhila, go to software center to download individual apps or remind me later option..something like the intro screen in linux mint or something like #! or more better..

    If this walkthrough to install Nikhila is available with the RC, sometimes the dedoimedo review would have been different...

    I know you have done great work in creating these apps but you have to improve the visibility of them much more, otherwise all the hard work will go unnoticed...

    The difference between Ubuntu and other linux distros is that Ubuntu is created by developers for Users while other linux distros are created by developers for themselves.. i think it is true for bodhi... If you give much more importance to normal users, I'm sure bodhi linux will have a bright future..

    Thanks
    Jai Ho

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  37. I am relatively new to Linux and have tried Bodhi yet. My observation is Linux as whole has distributions that cover what most users will need or want. You want to tinker, several distros are for you. Need to get up and running with a newer computer, you have many to chose from that will do a good job. Have some old hardware you want get some use out of, there are several "lighter" distros to chose from. I have learned to read what the project says its goals are to see if it fits what I need. The problem is that are many good, solid distros in every important category. The choice can be confusing to someone coming from the other OSs. No distro or OS can do all things for all people, the designers must make a choice for there target user group. I try find an article that states what the goal was and did they succeed in meeting that goal.

    I have Linux on three computers, for each computer I had different criteria for the distro. One is a laptop I which to keep in service, it has Xubuntu on it. One desktop is a dual boot Windows/Linux Mint - I need to use some Windows only software from time to time. It can run most of the distros available. The other desktop is an old computer that I was given. I use it as an experimental, test machine and it needs to have distros that run well on older hardware. Some distros will not run on the old beast, to old a process, video capacity to small, etc.

    I find Linux is lighter on the hardware, thus faster and is definitely stabler than Windows.

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  38. Hi Jeff, maybe ideas like the minimalist-e17-ubuntu-fork are not easily understood even by well meaning people. To me the description at distrowatch was enough to know that your distro would be interesting for me(someone who is no linux-guru, but more in the experienced-noob category). There are the distros out there, which are minimalistic and build-your-own, but they are usually very tough to use: Arch, Gentoo and the like. Also there are distros that use Enlightenment, but most of them are crap in some way or the other(Macpup being the best probably), which shows that just putting E on top of some other system is not easy.
    So to me clearly there is need for your fork: Linux users want to have an e17 distro and at least some would like to have a distro that is minimalistic, but still usable without deep Linux knowledge.
    That said: maybe this need is very clear to someone who has already experienced it, but is very hard to understand to others. Like a backscratcher for example. If you never felt an itch at a point of your back that you didn't reach, the idea of using a tool to do it would maybe seem ridiculous.
    And as I see it, this was the biggest point of Dedoimedo: He didn't see that there could be people out there who would want exactly this distro.
    As for the people who want you to make a "full" version: There are other distros out there and maybe even people with spare time who would like to make a full-e-ubuntu-distro, bodhi follows a very clear and distinct idea. Maybe not the best for everybody, but why should it.
    Of course LinuxMint with E would probably find more fans, but that would obviously be something completely different.
    Having thought about all that, I think the review was not very unfair. He didn't get the point of bodhi and he didn't find nano and his words were a bit harsh. But he doesn't conceal that most of it is his personal opinion(about E for example) and with that he gave a good feedback and an impression of what you will have to expect in the future: The people who just don't get the point will surely be the majority and they will speak about it.

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  39. Jeff,
    Bodhi is my favor distro, I understand, lots of this staff is done by Ubuntu team, but many distro is based on another package. It runs fast even on my 10 years old laptop, Ubuntu wouldn't even install; interface is as pretty as a Mac, I look at many distros base on ubuntu with GUI, Yours look the best work fastest, my P3 500 MHz processor can manage all the task I need, I wouldn't dream of anything better. I'm going to install Bodhi also to my desktop. You are very responsive person, I see at the forum You try solve any problem people have with theirs software. I never see anything like this with any distro released. You doing great job. Many writers do not know much about linux, just the installations, I am not a developer but just regular computer user and from the user point of view, it is the best looking linux distro I ever seen.
    Michael Rokosz

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  40. I'm pretty new to Linux, so this might change, but so far Bodhi's the best looking Linux distro I've seen. I won't be replacing Puppy Linux with it anytime soon (not because I don't WANT to... but because I stink at installing new OSes), but I will be trying it out as soon as I can. I agree with some of these commenters that it'd be nice if there were some more apps, but maybe we're just lazy. Truth is, if it's easy to install new apps from a website then there's really no need for anyone to complain. I did read Dedoimedo's review,and I think he completely missed the point. He complains that Bodhi doesn't have anything on it... Isn't that the whole idea? And he says that Puppy Linux looks better than Bodhi, with less space being taken. As I already stated, I use Puppy, and it does NOT look better than the Bodhi screen shots I've seen. I was a little worried when he said it had no audio, but I'm sure that'll (already has?) be fixed by the time I get my greedy little hands on your distro. Is it possible that he just didn't know how to turn the audio on? I had the same problem with Puppy Linux, which fixed easily after just a little snooping around. Looking forward to when I can get your distro on my laptop, think you're doing a good thing by making such a minimalistic OS.

    Alexander

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  41. I think Mkrvonic doesn't like an distro that is too minimal. I think a distro should have a minimum one browser - firefox, a good text editor - leafpad and and a good image editor like pinta. The aim shouldn't be to give people everything but just the basic tools to get the job done. Beyond that they can customize as they want and if they want to build a full blown system, something in between or very minimal - that should be their choice.

    I think your philosophy makes sense but extreme minimalism is also the wrong approach especially if people coming to Enlightenment don't know what they need to start out. The PCLOS mini edition is a good example of how to build a really lean distro and leaves it up to the end user to configure their own experience.

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  42. I see both sides of the coin on this one honestly. Its true that Bodhi is advertised as a minimalistic distro. However, there is a fine line between minimalistic and crippled.

    A distro without a text editor or sound? Now thats crippled, not minimalistic. I have to agree with Deido on those two. On any distro, even a minimalistic one, people should be able to have sound, edit text, take a screenshot etc etc. Once again, a fine line between minimalistic and crippled.

    Most of his other statements however seemed to be more along the lines of just his own personal dislike of E.

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  43. @Anoymous

    1.) You must hate Debian/Arch/Many other distros.

    2.) I agree and Bodhi has ALWAYS shipped with a text editor and audio. Like Deido apparently you never really looked at Bodhi ;)

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  44. Not at all, Jeff. In fact, i use Debian Squeeze with E that i built from svn on it. It is not bloated by default like its child Ubuntu, but it is certainly not an ultra minimalistic distro like Bodhi by default. Debian has a great base install in my opinion which is right between both worlds. I know that those things that Deido and i both mentioned are of course included in the releases that followed afterwards. I even remember reading some of your announcements at the time about the next release candidate having alsa and leafpad included. Coincidence? I don't think so. But anyway, i have used both the release candidate in question as well as the official release. Obviously, the review and the RC are in the past, and how Bodhi is now is all all that matters. But, at the time, he was right on a few things, which is all im saying =)

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  45. Bodhi has ALWAYS included nano - which is a text editor.

    Bodhi has ALWAYS included alsa.

    We just added leafpad so there could be a GUI text editor and we added alsa utils so the audio would not be MUTED by default.

    Terminal text editor and audio that is muted by default is far from "no audio and no text editor"

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